TRAVELLER Digest 577

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 575 by library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
  2) CT/MT vs. TNE: The Traveller Digest Rebellion. by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) GEnie News by scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
  4) An idea to bash... by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  5) Re: Discarding TNE?!, & various... by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  6) Re: Returning to the status quo by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  7) Re: Discarding TNE?!, & various... by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  8) Random/Semi-Random Skill Generation by "M.A. Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  9) Traveller software and Gas Giant Skimming and WAR!!!! by A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
 10) Re: GEnie News by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
 11) Re: CT/MT vs. TNE: The Traveller Digest Rebellion. by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
 12) Re: TRAVELLER digest 576 by Will  Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil>
 13) Civvie Technology Charts by "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 13:34:58 -0600
From: library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 575
Message-ID: <199602022333.NAA25033@babylon5.dss.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Michael Barry said:
>     Fellow Travellers
>     I have always felt that the gas giant refuelling is a little too pat.

Three places to look for details on gas giants & refuelling:

1. _Secret of the Ancients_ - a GG is explored. may be helpful i.t.o. temp,
winds, etc.
2. _Arrival Vengance_ - the first chapter, "Smoke Test", involves the Vengance
creaking and groaning through a GG refuel. A later chapter has a fuel shuttle
colliding with a "Roughneck" fuel harvester.
3. _Assignment: Vigilante_ gives full details on the "Roughneck" fuel harvester
(and probably a scenario? - I haven't read it for a while).

You may also sneak in "Wrong Way Valve" (Challenge 30-something??), if you want
a fuel line to leak or simply to have been reconnected wrongly at the last
maintenance overhaul (don't you hate it when mechanics wire up the reversing
light to your gearbox back-to-front?!)

Liked your descriptions - I may use them next time to hassle the PC's (who get
it far too easy!).

- Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:59:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: CT/MT vs. TNE: The Traveller Digest Rebellion.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960201213845.4823D-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Wow! This is getting vituperative!  I would like to suggest that
everyone cool their jets and get on with a constructive solution rather
than just slamming one another.  Ad hominem arguments are pointless and
potentially dangerous.

Jerry, for the record, I'm a CT/MT proponent, despite having given
TNE a chance.  I agree with you, however, that trying to backpedal and
"erase" the Virus era is a bad idea.  For one thing, Virus does not strike
me as such a bad concept.  (Am I the only one on this list who likes the
background of TNE but not the mechanics?)  For another, it's just not
necessary (see below).

For those of you who are worried about playing in an earlier era
with the shadow of a pre-determined apocalyptic future hanging over you
heads, I have one simple solution: ignore it!  I don't mean "just don't
think of it", I mean: "allow the players to make a difference and prevent
it" or "adjust historical events so it doesn't happen".

When Marc Miller publishes the sourcebooks for the various
historical eras, I hope he includes a note explaining that these books
represent a _suggested_ timeline and that individual refs should feel free
to modify it at will.  In terms of supplements and background material, a
referee playing in the "Imperial Golden Age" will be just as well
supported if he chooses to ignore the rebellion as he will if he allows it
to happen.  The reason:  both general environments are supported.  If you
want an Imperium without a rebellion, you just have to make up your own
set of events to replace it. This kind of creativity is what being a ref
is all about, isn't it?  (The same goes for those who want a rebellion,
but no Virus).

Please everybody, stop TYPING IN ALL CAPS and *starring* all your
comments.  And for crying out loud stop about the ox, will ya?  :-) This
is supposed to be fun!  (yeesh, I'm really sounding like a psycho-logist
here, aren't I?)

Yours diplomatically,
Charles.


<0>         "The past is as unknowable as the future..."<0>
<0> Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), <0>
<0> Psychology Department, McGill University.  <0>
<0> 1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  <0>



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 22:07:14 -0700
From: scharlto@RTD.COM (Steve Charlton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: GEnie News
Message-ID: <199602020507.WAA25701@seagull.rtd.com>

Just logged into the GEnie Traveller forum, and saw a note from Loren
stating that he was going to maintain the Traveller forum there until the
bitter end.  The bitter end in question being the imminent
restructuring/alteration of the GEnie service, including its Traveller
Roundtable and its library of Traveller files (including some older HIWG stuff).

Does anyone know if the GEnie traveller library has been backed up at MPGN
or elsewhere?  Otherwise, I need to start downloading, because the new order
at GEnie seems to be going out of its way to discourage users like myself
(doubling the price, etc).  I really only got GEnie for the Traveller and
GDW roundtables, and those seem to be somewhat moot now.

So, anybody know if the files in question are all available elsewhere?
Pardon the somewhat frenetic note; I just got back from two weeks in Japan,
and this seems to be a bad year so far:  GDW passes on, Marvel comics has a
major flake-out, GEnie begins to disintegrate, Babylon 5 moves to another
local station without telling me, etc.  Gaaaahh....
Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:49:48 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (traveller)
Subject: An idea to bash...
Message-ID: <9602020749.AA12625@Rt66.com>


Here's something I've been toying with for years, I never really wrote
much of it down before, so it might be a little dis organized.

A rationale for the 2d universe as presented in traveller:

The traveller system uses a 2d starmap comprised of sectors and subsectors.
Many people have expressed a desire to have a 3d universe, and have even gone to
some lengths to prepare statistics on how it would change the game universe.
Suffice it to say that it will radically change the universe under most schemes
posted to the TML.

My solution is one that is based on a traveller campaign I ran years ago.  While
I used a pre-FFW, Spinward Marches area, I wanted to have more unknown worlds--a
true frontier.  We assumed that Mdrives were blowtorches (fusion rockets in FFS
terms), but I also assumed that they weren't unlimited delta-v for various
rock/ship throwing reasons.  This new version would prefer a TNE-like limit on
total delta-v (even if it were raised a bunch).

Why 2d mapping?  Well, the maps used aren't actually maps of normal space,
they're maps of jump space.  This is why you don't see too much detail on the
large scale poster map of the Imperium.  The Sector and Subsector notation
evolved as as way to express large scale distances between worlds across
the width and breadth of the Imperium.

A bit of history may help.  Most of us are used to the "jump 1 is a distance of
one parsec" notation for Jdrives.  This isn't actually true.  When the Terrans
discovered jump drive in 2087, they started to explore the region around the Sol
system.  The first jumps were frequently misjumps, and until the nature of J1
space was established, the use of Jdrive was somewhat unpredictable.

What they began to notice was that they could make controlled jumps of about a
parsec.  Now a parsec is a measure of paralax equal to 1" of arc using the half
angle of a triangle using the star in question, and the Earth 6 months apart in
it orbit---a rather odd coincidence for the Jdrive to actually work in this odd
unit.  It turns out that what was limiting the jumps wasn't the normal space
distance, but their ability to calculate jump solutions, as well as their lack
of understanding of the way jump worked.  It boiled down to them trying in
typical "small steps" without even trying bigger ones.  The fact that the near
Sol area of the galaxy had physics that forced many J1 transitions didn't help
matters :-)  By the time they had figured this out, the term "parsec" had been
coopted by the Jdrive engineers, and since the histories we read are in english,
the terminology sticks.

So what's really going on?  It turns out that many systems are unreachable to
J1-6 drives.  This has to do with the complicated nature of jumpspace.  A J1
transition can actually produce a jump of many parsecs.  As it turns out (in our
spiral galaxy) the jump solutions have a tendency to form sheets more or less
along the orbital plane of the stars in the arms.  The situation in the core is
as of yet unknown.  These sheets are thinner than the thickness of a spiral arm,
but are still tens of parsecs thick.  Transitions between sheets are an area of
major study and appear to be possible if the J6/7 barrier is ever broken.  As a
result, the z-axis of the galaxy is folded into the jumpspace maps to simplify
the representation of the present accessible worlds for most sectors.  Several
sectors of the Imperium (the unpublished ones :-) are represented by stacking
maps with subsectors on top of each other.  Unfortunately the jump physics that
forms these "vertical" blowouts in the jump-sheets also creates barriers to J1-6
transitions along its margins (for all practical purposes a wall).

The jumpspace map demonstrates the relative positions of worlds with J1-6
transitions, as well as numerous empty regions that happen to have J-transitions
to them.  The actual distance between worlds has nothing to do with the map
position, those distances are for calculating the number of jumps required.
Major "landmark" features are actually in the large scale Imperial map, and the
features are actually in the subsector in the x,y coordinates, but the z
directions are subsumed into the j-routes.

This changes nothing about the history except that there is a sense of the
incredible resources just out of reach in the "Hidden Worlds" (as they are
sometimes called).  Misjump accidents have resulted in hidden world transitions,
but they are dependent upon the unpredictable initial conditions of the misjump
(although the documented hidden world misjumps are an area of intense research).

A fair number of sublight probes have been sent to the hidden worlds throughout
the Imperium, and the Scout service maintains a continuing survey of these
worlds, but it is slow work, and requires immense sacrifice on the part of the
explorers.


Possible uses:

Use a misjump as a start to the exploration of a totally unknown system...

a. The system is a "magnet" for certain types of misjump transitions and
is a graveyard of trapped ships that couldn't find the conditions for a planned
"misjump" back out.

b.  Potential for new races (who can't have Jdrive since the physics of
their system doesn't allow it to be used).  They'd be know by radio, etc.
detected by astronomers (as they would know about _us_).

c.  Where'd the Ancients go...

Want a hard-SF setting?  Take a slow-boat to the Hidden Worlds in a low-berth.

It's kinda fun, and adds a ton of invisible worlds to go to when you get bored
:-)  The only trick is getting back... anyone read "The Gripping Hand?"

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:13:31 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Discarding TNE?!, & various...
Message-ID: <01I0PYJIHKC295SPOB@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  1-FEB-1996 10:30:17.10
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:RE: Discarding TNE?!, & various...


In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 01 Feb 1996 04: 44:26 EST
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 11:59:19 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Let's be frank here. It's obvious that you don't care much about what I
: want bcause it's not what you want. Well, the feeling is quite mutual &
: is one of the reasons GDW is gone. They told too many old-timers like me
: that they didn't care about us anymore & we reciprocated. Obviously there
: weren't enough people like you to sustain the comp. w/o those like me.
: The question is whether or not the lesson has been learned. I have hope
: that MM will make it possible for me to support Traveller once again.
: We've already seen what MT & TNE can do & neither of them cut it. Hopefully
: this will change now. Hopefully.

 Let's be really frank here.  If Traveller goes where you want it to,
 it will die a quicker death than TNE.  CT as a game has absolutely no
 appeal in today's RPG market.  You don't believe me?  Look at the crap
 that does sell.  Am I saying turn Traveller into crap?  No, I'd rather
 see it out of print than done badly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's not the rules that killed TNE & it wasn't the rules that made CT.
It was the background. How long did TNE last? <snicker> Yeah, it was
a real winner wasn't it. Now let's look at the CT background. No com-
parison. Traveler will stay dead unless MM get's back to the background
that made Traveller a winner & that wasn't MT or TNE, it was CT.
================================================================

 However, the attitude you're taking is no better than the one GDW
 took.  You would prefer to displace all the TNE people because quite
 simply, it's what you want.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Funny how you object to the same attitude you have when it show up
in others. You've already demonstrated that you have no concern about
my displacement yet you object when I show the same lack of concern
about yours.
============

 MM has already propossed the solution to this problem.  Allow multiple
 settings at different parts of the timeline's history.  It works!
 It's simple, it's elegent, and many other companies do it.  Alas, all
 the CT people seem to hate this idea.  Why?  Is it because they know
 the future?  So what, set your adventure in 1050 and your characters
 will never see the Rebellion.  Play in the Regency in 1202 and never
 have them leave it's borders.  Play in the future ``restored
 Imperium'' timeline.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Maybe because we can't see why Traveller should continue to drag TNE's
dead weight behind it?

There's no way I can see that MM will be able fully support multiple
timelines. The new operation will undoubtedly be on a shoestring. The
competition is to see which gets to go first because whichever does,
if it fails, will probably end Traveller for good. TNE has already had
it's shot & has failed. Trying it again will only repeat that failure.
MT ran the system down. CT was the only background that was a success.
=====================================================================

 The problem here is that you've all become so self-indulgent that you
 would all rather destroy the opposition rather than create a workable
 solution.

 Funny, we've created our own fractionalized Rebellion.  Let the
 history of 1116-1132 teach us something.

       --Jerry
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well all I can say is that we're just acting the same way you are.
We are interested in products that fulfill our desires & not interested
in those that don't. Perhaps you should stop indulging your own TNE
habit before you criticize my CT one?
It's time to give the CT background a shot at saving Traveller.
And (as you've already stated to me) you can always just make up your
own timeline.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:22:10 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Returning to the status quo
Message-ID: <01I0PZ52UGNC95SPOB@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  1-FEB-1996 11:23:25.66
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:Returning to the status quo

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 13:09:54 -0500
From: Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
Subject: Returning to the status quo

>>As for the timeline, I'm at a loss as to why the CT/MT camp want to discard
the TNE background. They say they want the Rebellion to end, and then Hard Times
to pass without the release of virus, but then the Imperium will return to what?
Basically Classic Traveller again, so if that is the game they want to play,
why can't they just play it in the CT part of the timeline, and leave the
future for people who want to do more than just return to the status quo.<<

I think that about says it all.  I find it amusing that there's this lunatic
fringe out there that wants to ruin the party for those of us who moved forward.
 I have news for those folks:  CT and MT were not God's gift to RPGs!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

They both were a *hell* of a lot better than the travesty that was TNE.
I'm amused myself by the "lunatic fringe" that wants to continue beating
the dead horse of TNE.
======================

TNE, no matter what you think about the background, has a very good, very
playable rule set.  I don't think the dissidents even gave it a chance.  They
just let hysteria take hold and fester over the years.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The TNE background is what killed Traveller. Or at least it didn't save it,
that's for sure. It's time to get back to the background that was a success.
And that was the CT one.
========================

What's done is done.  We're talking GDW-canonized material here, not the shoddy
_decanonized_ Beyond and Vanguard Reaches JG materials.  I loyally stuck by GDW,
despite whatever misgivings I had about the Virus and Collapse and moved
forward.  Despite what some of the dissidents may think, the TNE background and
rules are not half bad.

Throwing out the timeline in favor of the static status quo of CT would be the
single _worst_ thing that could happen to Traveller.

--Chris
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Nope, that would be the single best thing that could happen. The worst thing
has already happened & it was the TNE background. Let it die. And then it
would be "done" with & I could say, "what's done is done" back to you.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:38:43 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Discarding TNE?!, & various...
Message-ID: <01I0PZLNA13Y95SPOB@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  1-FEB-1996 16:13:37.90
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:RE: Discarding TNE?!, & various...

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 18:06:08 -0500
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
Subject: Re: Discarding TNE?!, & various...

At 04:44 am 2/1/96 -0500, Phil Pugliese wrote:
>It's GDW's (& your) ox that's gone astray & the demise of GDW shows how
>far astray that ox has gone. Traveller did best with the original back-
>ground & that's where it should return if it wants to survive.
>
>Let's be frank here. It's obvious that you don't care much about what I
>want bcause it's not what you want. Well, the feeling is quite mutual &
>is one of the reasons GDW is gone. They told too many old-timers like me
>that they didn't care about us anymore & we reciprocated. Obviously there
>weren't enough people like you to sustain the comp. w/o those like me.

        So now you want Marc Miller to make the same mistake, and piss off
 those of us who like the new stuff? Let's see, we've alienated many of the
 "old fogies," many of whom probably won't be back anyway. Let's see if we
 can drive away the people who still like what we're doing, and then avoid
 attracting new people! Then Traveller will well and truly be dead, and we
 won't have anything left to argue about.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Nice try, but no cigar. How about "Let's drop this loser TNE background,
which not enough people supported anyway, & replace it with one that
had enough support to make GDW prosperous". As I said, each of us is
supporting the position that will deliver what each of us wants. We can
come up with all the arguments in the world but you aren't going to sup-
port something that doesn't give you what want & neither will I. That's
what it really all boils down to.
=================================

>The question is whether or not the lesson has been learned. I have hope
>that MM will make it possible for me to support Traveller once again.

        Explain to me again why you're unable to run any kind of campaign
 you like? Others seem to have no problem running non-virus campaigns ...
 Sounds to me like you're one of those people who won't be satisfied with
 anything MM decides to do if it strays even slightly from your Holy Writ.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

(Well better my "Holy Writ" than yours. ;*)  )

Explain to me why it upsets you so to be placed in the same "provide your
own support" category that you so blithely regulate me too? Show me how easy
it is when you're not getting any support except from yourself. Show me how
much fun it is.  TNE didn't cut it. It's time to get back to a background
that did.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

Date:          Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:55:50 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A. Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Random/Semi-Random Skill Generation
Message-ID: <3288F522D09@daisy.le.ac.uk>

Please, no random-skill generations please?  This brings back to many
shades of Warhammer FRP.  Urgh.  Nasty.  For those players who wish
to have essentially "immortal" characters by continually choosing the
same skills (etc.) then I say let them.  With some people it actually
increases their enjoyment, sort of like playing a time travelling
character without all the problems.  I must add I'm not one of them.

--MARK

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 11:52:34 +0000
From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller software and Gas Giant Skimming and WAR!!!!
Message-ID: <199602021157.GAA16082@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

TRAVELLER SOFTWARE

In TML 575, Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com> said:

>Here's my Traveller Christmas wishlist 11 months early.
>...
>   o Clarification of the legal issues around distribution of software...

>   o After the clarification - release of a public domain program in
>     source code to generate systems, subsectors, sectors...

Talk to Jo Grant on jo_grant@crd.lotus.com about SYSGEN.

>   o A program to generate NPCs from the CT book 1 "Characters and...
>   o A program to generate NPCs from the CT books 4, 5, and 6 systems...

I've done these for Windows although using the MT tables and also supporting
all the advanced character generation systems (except Flyers I think). The
program includes full Vargr, Aslan, etc. generation as per the DGP books,
Zhodani as per the CT alien module, a flexible rules system (i.e. you can
cheat if you want), you can change between careers, you can roll the whole
character automatically or go through a roll at a time, altering those that
you want (using Brownie points, etc.).
I've seen other programs as well with this sort of stuff in (though not, to
my knowledge, as comprehensive as mine).
Only problem is the first point you mentioned, i.e. (c) et al. I did put an
old beta test version of the program on the ftp.engrg.uwo.ca server some
years ago but I think this had a dated protection system in it, so it won't
work now. There was insufficient interest to cause me to update it further
and with the potential for a new rules set coming out, there seems no point
now, although I would be quite happy to use it as a core for any new rules
that do come out.

FUEL SKIMMING

Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au then made some comments on
Gas Giant Fuel Skimming...

Well I refer you too to Jo Grant on jo_grant@crd.lotus.com - he issued some
stuff on TML some months back, including a short story and (I think) some
fuel skimmer designs.

WEB MATERIAL

Go have a look at Jo Grant's web pages: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/pub/travaid
and give him some feedback. Hopefully it will also encourage others to make
the same sort of material available (i.e. including things like the animated
fly-bys).

TNE VS. CT/MT

Ok, it's clear we all have our views on this. Couldn't we resolve this to
some degree, perhaps by the following methods:

GDW has often 'gone back' on previous 'canon' material. Examples include:
* the re-characterisation of the 'Star Vikings' into caring, considerate
technology enthusiasts...
* the re-characterisation of CT's evil Zhodani into caring, considerate
types who would never scan your brain without asking and who were only
defending themselves against the expansionist Imperium...

Ok, so let's say there's a precedent. How much of the 1200s Imperium has
_actually_ been covered in detail by the new TNE rules. Pretty much zippo, yes?

So we're all assuming that everywhere is hugely devastated, yes? Isn't there
the plausible excuse that the TNE stuff only presents this concept because
the books (including the rule book) are clearly all written from the
viewpoint of the RC, who have no contact with anyone outside them?

Is it therefore not possible that the Virus was not actually as devastating
as was thought, but that perhaps many areas survived much like the Regency.
Again, drawing upon a few minutes reading of Hard Times, one can quickly see
that interstellar trade and travel was already minimal (except in the major
centres of power) by 1126... yet the Virus was supposed to have spread like
wildfire on all this interstellar traffic... that wasn't there.

A COMPROMISE CANON UNIVERSE

So I would like to suggest to everyone (INCLUDING MARC MILLER) that it would
be quite possible to support the current TNE background but to have many of
the major power bases from Hard Times still in existence with quarantines or
alternative procedures having neutralised the Virus problem totally.

Why haven't the remaining power bases expanded to make a new Imperium? Well,
some might have joined, but others may have had 70 years to build up a real
hatred. History books tell of the oppressors from [insert faction] who
caused the downfall of the Imperium and who should be destroyed on sight.
Perhaps other factions have realised that to rebuild their economic base
they _have_ to cooperate. Yet expansion after war takes a long time. And
resources can't be wasted on exploring Wilds areas which might be very
hostile or neighbour the Virus or any one of a billion biological weapons,
automated defences, etc. used by the factions during the Rebellion. So the
return of the Imperium would be slow but the whole of the Solomani
(spinward? I can never get the directions right!) side of the Imperium could
have reformed pretty much without altering the history of the Regency or RC
and pretty much ignoring the Virus.

Comments please (to the list or privately)?

Sorry this doesn't solve the rules dispute, but BITS _is_ working on it...

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 08:20:18 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: GEnie News
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960202132018.006f4d74@TanSoft.com>

At 12:07 AM 2/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone know if the GEnie traveller library has been backed up at MPGN
>or elsewhere?  Otherwise, I need to start downloading, because the new order
>at GEnie seems to be going out of its way to discourage users like myself
>(doubling the price, etc).  I really only got GEnie for the Traveller and
>GDW roundtables, and those seem to be somewhat moot now.

Its not backed up at MPGN.  Though we would like to do so.  If Marc agrees
and Loren or some other GEnie subscriber (and I guess this needs GEnie's
approval as well since they have that silly non-redistribution clause on
uploads) wants to bundle the stuff up, we would be happy to take it.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 08:34:14 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: CT/MT vs. TNE: The Traveller Digest Rebellion.
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960202133414.006de0d4@TanSoft.com>

At 09:59 PM 2/1/96 -0500, Charles wrote:
>Jerry, for the record, I'm a CT/MT proponent, despite having given
>TNE a chance.  I agree with you, however, that trying to backpedal and
>"erase" the Virus era is a bad idea.  For one thing, Virus does not strike
>me as such a bad concept.  (Am I the only one on this list who likes the
>background of TNE but not the mechanics?)  For another, it's just not
>necessary (see below).

I don't like the virus at all, but we can't erase it, we need to move beyond
it. That way people who like that setting can stay there, just as I prefer
to stay in 1110.

Its kind of intersting.  I have a friend who is going to start a Traveller
campaign soon.  He owns TNE, and borrowed all my CT/MT stuff.  He is coming
into this as a neutral party so to speak.  He is leaning to using the MT
rules set because it is advanced enough to allow detail without overburding
the system.  He hasn't said what time line he is running, but I suspect it
will be around 1205 shortly after the Regency re-opened its borders.

Actually we have beaten this dead horse to death.  We just have to wait for
new products and see what we get.  A previous message was saying to not
alienate the existing TNE fans because the "old-fogies" were already turned
off.  I don't think the old-fogies are turned off to Traveller, but turned
off to the shoddy editing in MT, and Twilight 5000 (ish).  Believe me,
whatever Marc puts out will be bought by new and old alike.  I own
practically every GDW Traveller product put out (ok, I'm missing JTAS 1-5,
and a couple of MT adventures, and three TNE supplements) and I will buy
probably everything that comes out again

Lets move on to more helpful threads.  Lets start an TNS system going.  Lets
share world and NPC descriptions (like the RICE papers that have been
published here in the past).  Lets see some "Contact", "Ships Locker", and
"Amber Zone" style articles.  Time to help each other out instead of bashing
each other.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 09:43:54 -0500
From: Will  Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 576
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960202144354.28ef0018@137.246.1.196>


>Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 16:09:03 -0700
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Re: Space Opera the game vs Space Operas
>Message-ID: <1.5.4b11.32.19960201230903.006f0a58@lynx.csn.net>

>  Yes I would like traveller to return to it's old story line prior to Virus.
>>I would like to see a simplification of the rules or at least a basic rules
>>set. The current TNE system requires access to the net to find the modules
>>to plug and chug into your equipment, or you will have to do it all your self.
>>Time like silence is golden, why waste it trying to figure out a complicated
>>rule system when there is a simpler one that is just as much fun.

>        One of the biggest gripes I have about this ongoing debate are the
>number of people willing to shut out others simply because they don't like
>the part of the game others like. The "gearheads" have been supporting a
>simple design system in the basic game, but the simple people have been
>shouting "away with the detailed system! We don't want it, so nobody
>should!" Likewise, the anti-TNE fanatics have been shouting "Down with the
>Evil Virus! We cannot abide it, and neither should anybody else!" ignoring
>the fact most of the New Era folks have been SUPPORTING multiple settings
>(including, BTW, Mr. Miller).
>
>        Folks, how about a little tolerance for other people's interests?
>It's quite possible to compromise and make _everybody_ at least a little happy.
> ___________________________________________________________________
>  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
>  goldendj@whip.com        http://www.whip.com/~goldendj/index.html

Not once did I say "WE MUST" I did say "I WOULD LIKE" when referring to a
particular rules set. I WOULD LIKE to see traveler return to the MT period.
I did not say "WE MUST get rid of the Virus piece of crap."  I could have
but having been on this earth for nearly 30 years one thing I have learned
to live
with is CHANGE. Traveller is about to change. Like it or not it will happen.
I have not shouted anyone down, I will try not to. I do feel however that since
Marc Miller is most likely reading this list that we should post our feelings
about Traveller. If multiple setting are to be supported then I put my vote in
for supporting pre virus first. ( this is called expressing my thoughts with out
 saying anything bad about the Virus period.
 There are a few good things about the virus period I like but I do not care
to game in that period. Also I do not like the TNE rules when ever I attempt
to play BR or BL it always seems to revert to a discussion of how the could
have done the rules better by making it simpler/less confusing. FF&S I took
three looks at it, and shelved it (it's still there). some of the ideas
where really good. I always go back to High Guard for my starships and I
only use
the old CT standard designs for vehicles. Boring? maybe do I enjoy it YES!
Will this debate continue? most likely. I suggest you prepare your self for
a long discussion about the various Travellers (CT, MT, TTNE, ?T) as many
people have many things to say, and the man who holds Traveller in his hands
is listening. That is why I said I would like to see traveller return to the
period prior to the virus and not WE MUST return the pre-virus.

Thank you for listening and don't worry I wont shut you out.
So don't shut me out


 Will

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:22:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Civvie Technology Charts
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.960202100343.9807A-100000@cummings.uchicago.edu>


> It(Civilization) has the *most* unrealistic technology handling have
>*ever* seen.
> Note:  armour or a bomber unit built when you don't even have gunpowder
> or combustion(it *is* possible, I've done it) is just as effective as
>one built with futuretech 130(I've had FT130 bombers loose to 20th
>century
>riflemen!)

>Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Whoa!

I wasn't suggesting adopting the chart of advances itself!  Nor do I
think the combat system is terribly nice (although I would note that
North Vienamese soldiers were (very rrarely) shooting down A-6s with
small arms fire, showing that a rifleman can in fact "kill" a bomber.
that doesn't explain why I had an ironclad attack a Phalanx and die,
though.)

I was only suggesting the method of making advances dependent on
prerequisites that are specific and defined, thereby allowing one path od
advancements to exceed another where they are not related - giving such
interesting combinations of technology as mechanical "computers" in
Napoleonic Europe, or perhaps Electricity usage in a roman empire
setting.  I am not sure exactly what is possible or reasonable,but the
implications seem far fetched.

This, of course, would be for building a culture that was independent of
the imperium or other cultures in its development.  It could also be used
for "wilds" planets that have 'come back' to some extent.  Like some
other posters, I think that Iperial member worlds' tech levels are a
reflection of the local tech ability to produce.

Pete

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 577
***************************
